Zero's 3rd Job and AP Advancement

In light of DokuDeru's post, I thought I might as well put my own thoughts out there. I said them as a sidenote in a thread a while back, but here's my topic on it.

I main a level 79, soon-to-be-80 Zero, and I feel that I have a good grip of all of his playstyle moves and abilities. However, he was made and is advertised as a Stance-based player, meaning that his true strength is in his Stances. Wanderer began with Sword Stance and Defensive Stance, and Seeker brought forth Offensive Stance. These sounded great when we got them, but an issue soon arose: They are just not practical outside of certain scenarios. Zero-users mainly just use Offensive Stance for the extra power, but the extra AP cost and lack of mobility makes this a double-edged sword. In PvP, stancing is terrible: OS can only be used to catch an opponent off-guard and is easily counterable. Defensive stance I have found ONLY works on Stationary enemies, like Rukkha, the Ancient Golem, and the Portals in RoK.

So my idea was centered in a stance Zero-users could actually use: a Speed Stance. There wouldn't be any deterioration in other stats, just an increase in speed and fluidity by using Grandark in some special way. However, an issue soon arose: Grandark is a Greatsword. There's no "fast" way to wield it. My original idea I had hoped to see was just a new form, like the spike-form that Seeker uses. However, KoG released this discarded idea of Dio's third job:

Source: http://www.grandchase.info/krgc-dios-third-job-concept-preview (More images here.)

Now, obviously that isn't the Soul Reaver, right? But, unlike Zero, Dio's weapon doesn't morph into new forms. Dio simply summons new weapons. But a bow is a bit odd to have as a simple summon, nor would it be the center of the advertisement for a new job. So I thought maybe Dio gets a new weapon instead of (or a new transformation of) the Soul Reaver. It makes sense on a couple levels. For one, it now gives a reason to have the WeaponSwap function on AP characters. For two, it'd be annoying to have to keep building up on skill trees for the same weapon, and AP characters would simply continue to become more overpowered. This gives them a chance to make a fresh and equally powerful skill tree. And lastly, as long as they figured out a reason for Dio, you can simply say that Ley summons a weapon and Grandark transforms for Zero, thus giving them all new weapons.

In this light, it would make perfect sense to give Zero a Speed Stance. You can transform Grandark into a different kind of sword (I was hoping for a double blade, held at the center with a blade on each end.) and have brand new skills with different stylistic moves in general. You could also have it so that if you switch from one weapon to the other, your skill tree switches, with a global cooldown for all the AP skills upon switching. What do you guys think?

hmm idk tbh.. speed stance would seem ok for pvpers but that would mean more ap and people with more ap will probly max out their skills insted of usein the speed set if their dungeoners and not pvpers. and zeros weapon does change form.

and his swords a greatsword? please.. elesis has the biggest sword in the game and THATS a proper greatsword. not to mention sieg has a greatsword and moves around like sonic the hedgehog. he has twice the mobility then zero. still zero is a stance character so they should add more movement speed to him and not make him merely a snail to take hits. plus zero is mostly for dungeons not pvp so im not really sure what to call this. ill get back to you on my decision.

zarrurer:

hmm idk tbh.. speed stance would seem ok for pvpers but that would mean more ap and people with more ap will probly max out their skills insted of usein the speed set if their dungeoners and not pvpers. and zeros weapon does change form.

and his swords a greatsword? please.. elesis has the biggest sword in the game and THATS a proper greatsword. not to mention sieg has a greatsword and moves around like sonic the hedgehog. he has twice the mobility then zero. still zero is a stance character so they should add more movement speed to him and not make him merely a snail to take hits. plus zero is mostly for dungeons not pvp so im not really sure what to call this. ill get back to you on my decision.

Uhm, I don't know if you have looked at size or where you are drawing your qualifications from, but if you want to talk about greatsowrds... Sieghart's Soluna is almost the exact same size as Grandark. Yes, Elesis's sword is bigger, but that doesn't mean Grandark is not under the same classification. Also, the technical definition of greatsword is any of a number of large swords, from longswords to claymores. Pixel size has nothing to do with classification, All three weapons are greatswords.

And yes, Sieghart moves twice as fast as Zero. Wouldn't that say Grandark is heavier than Soluna? Wouldn't that also make a Speed Stance perfectly plausible? As far as your comments on PvP, I don't now what you mean by "more AP." The image I put up there is discarded concept art: meaning they ARE working on 3rd and 4th jobs for AP. I'm merely posting my thoughts as to where it might go. But there will be "more AP," make no mistake of that. And Speed is because Zeros who PvP rarely stance, and when they do it's for a short time in Offensive Stance, then they switch out for the AP attacks. The fact is that none of his stances are used extensively, so why not give us one we can actually fight in? Speed makes several characters better, so why not give some to Zero?

In the sense of this idea with speed stance you could take what La Geass and Archer ST have and make it like a range stance. Turning the shrapnels of Grandark (Visible during Abyss and Break through) and have those fire at people but make the range a certain length so you can't sit and camp in large areas.

I would support this if you provide some extra info it would be nice. =) I actually enjoy playing zero and I agree that the stance changes will be a key factor with job advancements. (Speed, Range, etc.) =3

triforcebrat:

I would support this if you provide some extra info it would be nice. =) I actually enjoy playing zero and I agree that the stance changes will be a key factor with job advancements. (Speed, Range, etc.) =3

I don't exactly favor a Range Stance, though I absolutely do not rule it out. Simple preference: I like my Zero as a swordsman, and I find it hard to imagine Grandark being a ranged weapon. Again, that's just a personal idea. But it DOES hit on my point:

I can't add anymore information because my idea is based in Grandark becoming a different equippable weapon. What I meant by the above, in summary, was that every AP character would have two weapons: The Soul Reaver, the Grandark, and the Ultima for the first two jobs and skill trees, and a second set for the last two jobs and STs. That being said, the new jobs would be unique in that I have no idea what they could be. You could literally give these three ANY weapon imaginable: Ley and Dio can summon any weapon the developers want them to have, same with Grandark's transforming into any other type. This idea is about all the current AP characters, not just Zero.

I put Zero in the title, because that directly links with his job: I wanted to see a Speed Stance. I believe a weapon change can make this possible, but I have no idea what to put in it. Mainly I just wanted something fast at the same power Zero already has: something that allows him to move at the same speed as Sieghart/Elesis/Ronan but in a powerful stance, not his base moveset. As for his skills, again, the skill tree would be completely new, so I don't know what they could put in there. It would be attacks based on the new weapon, but that's as far as I can go with that.
I can say that the base moveset would probably be the same, not just for Zero but for all three APs (With the exception of Dio unlocking a new combo, like Drakar had.) With Zero, he'd just use Grandark in a different way in the new stances.

In short, I just think the new classes should keep their current playstyles of Dio being a mixture of magic and weapons, Zero being a Stancer, and Ley being a Summoner, BUT!! I think they should also have a parallel set of abilities to go along with that. The WeaponSwap function would allow access to ALL their skills, so it isn't like you lose anything. More like it would become like Amy's Dancer and Fighter modes, just with jobs, not abilities. That being said, The above were thoughts on Zero alone, since Stancing is the most limiting playstyle of the three (both Dio and Ley can go ANYWHERE the developers want them to go.).

Apologize for double posting, but another thing to add on:

Think about all the AP characters we see now. How many Dio's have a particular skill set they are set on, would never change? How many good Zeros use Increase (which I will defend is completely pointless) and how many Ley's use Bastion Mary (also pointless, but only in light of other, more powerful skills. This one is debatable though. Not the point.) With a dual system like I proposed, you'd be able to have two sets, meaning that Dio's would keep this Soul Reaver set and have a second for the second weapon.

The reason this is good is because when 4th jobs get released, if they keep building off each other like they have, skills will require you to pick a left-hand or a right-hand side from Job ONE in order to get the best skills in Job FOUR. You'd have to solely invest in it from the start. Not to mention that some passives might become unnecessary once a new job is released, and all of this is going to require SP Reset Cards. Having a Dual system would prevent all of this.

I never mentioned make him from melee to range, have it stationary so it is easy to remove or be punished. Or even make damage hurt twice as bad for the chance to hit with Grandarks spikes. Technically Abyss already fits my vision of that.

triforcebrat:

I never mentioned make him from melee to range, have it stationary so it is easy to remove or be punished. Or even make damage hurt twice as bad for the chance to hit with Grandarks spikes. Technically Abyss already fits my vision of that.

You did say "range stance," though I do see what you mean. It actually fits in somewhat nicely with my idea to keep all the skills from the first and second jobs on a WeaponSwap. You could switch weapons to the new stance, then switch back when you want to melee. Makes sense. As I said, I definitely wouldn't rule it out. It's solely preference on my end.

Lloyd13Z:

In light of DokuDeru's post, I thought I might as well put my own thoughts out there. I said them as a sidenote in a thread a while back, but here's my topic on it.

I main a level 79, soon-to-be-80 Zero, and I feel that I have a good grip of all of his playstyle moves and abilities. However, he was made and is advertised as a Stance-based player, meaning that his true strength is in his Stances. Wanderer began with Sword Stance and Defensive Stance, and Seeker brought forth Offensive Stance. These sounded great when we got them, but an issue soon arose: They are just not practical outside of certain scenarios. Zero-users mainly just use Offensive Stance for the extra power, but the extra AP cost and lack of mobility makes this a double-edged sword. In PvP, stancing is terrible: OS can only be used to catch an opponent off-guard and is easily counterable. Defensive stance I have found ONLY works on Stationary enemies, like Rukkha, the Ancient Golem, and the Portals in RoK.

So my idea was centered in a stance Zero-users could actually use: a Speed Stance. There wouldn't be any deterioration in other stats, just an increase in speed and fluidity by using Grandark in some special way. However, an issue soon arose: Grandark is a Greatsword. There's no "fast" way to wield it. My original idea I had hoped to see was just a new form, like the spike-form that Seeker uses. However, KoG released this discarded idea of Dio's third job:

Source: http://www.grandchase.info/krgc-dios-third-job-concept-preview (More images here.)

Now, obviously that isn't the Soul Reaver, right? But, unlike Zero, Dio's weapon doesn't morph into new forms. Dio simply summons new weapons. But a bow is a bit odd to have as a simple summon, nor would it be the center of the advertisement for a new job. So I thought maybe Dio gets a new weapon instead of (or a new transformation of) the Soul Reaver. It makes sense on a couple levels. For one, it now gives a reason to have the WeaponSwap function on AP characters. For two, it'd be annoying to have to keep building up on skill trees for the same weapon, and AP characters would simply continue to become more overpowered. This gives them a chance to make a fresh and equally powerful skill tree. And lastly, as long as they figured out a reason for Dio, you can simply say that Ley summons a weapon and Grandark transforms for Zero, thus giving them all new weapons.

In this light, it would make perfect sense to give Zero a Speed Stance. You can transform Grandark into a different kind of sword (I was hoping for a double blade, held at the center with a blade on each end.) and have brand new skills with different stylistic moves in general. You could also have it so that if you switch from one weapon to the other, your skill tree switches, with a global cooldown for all the AP skills upon switching. What do you guys think?

I would definitely play Zero a lot more if the heart of his technique and power, his stances, were a lot more practical to use. I like your speed stance idea for Zero, but granted that you are right that there is no speed in wielding a great sword, I came up with a new name for it. The Agility Stance. Closely examining Zero, there is another character in the video game universe named Siegfried, from Soul Calibur (And if you look on Elesis's title in your collection, you will see Siegfried's name there too.) Siegfried's stances are reffered to as "holds". Each one is used for either defense, offense, or evasion, or a chaining of the previous. That's where the Agility Stance comes in for Zero, which is basically the evasion "hold" for Siegfried. I'm not exactly sure how that will work in a 2d game, but it's at least a starting point and as of right now does not go against the logic of "no speed with a great sword".

As for Dio, I honestly feel that giving a bow to him is a terrible idea. (This is bias just by looking at that picture you posted with your thoughts on this topic, no offense to you or anything but the picture just looks silly). Most Dios that I've played really don't use the techniques that make Dio summon new weapons. But that's beside the point. The point is is that if Dio were to get new weapons to summon they ought to be good ones like the Soul Reaver, the Infernal Spear, and his Flash Sabre. Giving Dio a bow would be an AP male version of Lire, and I can only imagine how overpowered a mixture like that would be. (This is also beside the point but it's also fun to talk about as well as it is disturbing to think about.)

Nevertheless I am in full support of weapon-associated skill trees rather than the skill tree our AP characters have at the moment. The jobs we have right now don't feel like new jobs, they feel like extensions of the 1st job. (And the Seeker mask just doesn't look cool to me in my opinion.)

Eize22:

I would definitely play Zero a lot more if the heart of his technique and power, his stances, were a lot more practical to use. I like your speed stance idea for Zero, but granted that you are right that there is no speed in wielding a great sword, I came up with a new name for it. The Agility Stance. Closely examining Zero, there is another character in the video game universe named Siegfried, from Soul Calibur (And if you look on Elesis's title in your collection, you will see Siegfried's name there too.) Siegfried's stances are reffered to as "holds". Each one is used for either defense, offense, or evasion, or a chaining of the previous. That's where the Agility Stance comes in for Zero, which is basically the evasion "hold" for Siegfried. I'm not exactly sure how that will work in a 2d game, but it's at least a starting point and as of right now does not go against the logic of "no speed with a great sword".

 

As for Dio, I honestly feel that giving a bow to him is a terrible idea. (This is bias just by looking at that picture you posted with your thoughts on this topic, no offense to you or anything but the picture just looks silly). Most Dios that I've played really don't use the techniques that make Dio summon new weapons. But that's beside the point. The point is is that if Dio were to get new weapons to summon they ought to be good ones like the Soul Reaver, the Infernal Spear, and his Flash Sabre. Giving Dio a bow would be an AP male version of Lire, and I can only imagine how overpowered a mixture like that would be. (This is also beside the point but it's also fun to talk about as well as it is disturbing to think about.)

Nevertheless I am in full support of weapon-associated skill trees rather than the skill tree our AP characters have at the moment. The jobs we have right now don't feel like new jobs, they feel like extensions of the 1st job. (And the Seeker mask just doesn't look cool to me in my opinion.)

I'm just going to reply in bulk: Yes, Grandark is a Greatsword, but via my idea, I don't think he would be anymore. As I said, Seeker showed us that Grandark changes form, and the new form was actually much smaller in size and weight as the "shrapnel" bits, as triforcebrat called them, actually flew off of the blade. So, instead of using other games as precedent (sorry, this is something I never put faith into) I was assuming that Grandark would change into a new form other than a greatsword, but equally as powerful. In the beginning, I did not realize that my idea was taken, but I had mentioned something like Ryan's Storm Pike, and how he uses it as Vanquisher. This was only a thought, but by no means was it the only one: they could easily make sense of giving Zero a katana of sorts if they wanted to.

Onto Dio, it was a discarded concept, but I wasn't really talking about that in particular. Im all honesty that could have been JUST a powerful attack (at the risk of sounding hypocritical, it LOOKS like the Light Arrow final smash from Zelda in SuperSmashBrosBrawl), and the bow just another weapon he can summon. My idea was more hearted in the idea of giving all the AP characters a second weapon FOR the systems it would bring rise too, such as the dual skill trees and such. That's more or less the point of this. Though I have to point out that the skill trees would still be built like they are now, just a separate one for the two sets of jobs. Ryan's 4th job is a good example of how this would work, the biggest difference would be that it changes JOBS, not just movesets.

If we are going to give zero another job we could remove the mask stating that it kept the power within him sealed but when he realized he needs more power to defeat void he suddenly took off his mask revealing his cold calculating eyes proving he had strength and he wasn't just something that could weild grandark I know all the fans would be like No I would but however I would like to see zeros baby barf green eyes... But how oh I know permanent head gear upon completion that levels up every time u reach a 10 LV milestone from the time u get it onward

WindyShotu:

If we are going to give zero another job we could remove the mask stating that it kept the power within him sealed but when he realized he needs more power to defeat void he suddenly took off his mask revealing his cold calculating eyes proving he had strength and he wasn't just something that could weild grandark I know all the fans would be like No I would but however I would like to see zeros baby barf green eyes... But how oh I know permanent head gear upon completion that levels up every time u reach a 10 LV milestone from the time u get it onward

Look at that date of your post, then look at the date of the one before yours.

Notice anything strange?

 

I know that it's your first post but...

@TC
i apologize - so many walls - i may have missed a major point or several. or this may a necro'd thread. either way i want to post.

anyway;
a "speed stance" would be cool. but offensive stance would need a buff first.
herse my take on a speed stance;
dual warswords.

grandark is what amounts to a sentient demon sword with an extreme magical presence. there is no reason why he cant change himself to fit a situation, indeed that sounds like a good idea. id suggest a speed stance that uses two much lighter swords. giving zero a massive speed increase.
----{}        O           |        |
----{}      /  |  \         |        |
----{}         |            |        |
-----{}      |   |        ---     ---
                              |        |
im thinking two long swords, grandark length, that are a fraction of the wieght with the extra material floating around zero similar to geas AWDs.
zero would use one sword to attack, and would attack in very fast slicing motions (similar to ravens blade jobs in elsword...) and would have the ability to; double jump, dash very fast, glide (NOT fly), and "pounce" attacks where he drops down from the air aided by the grandark extraneous junk.
the sword combos would be fast and infinite, without a knockdown, and could be started and continued indefinitely (you wouldnt have to hit an enemy to get past the first attack, like AK or geas).

... also, his ST would have techs that put zero instantly into a sword stance. the techs would NOT have a cooldown, and would still be accessible via XX(x^) and XX(x>).

mabushii:

grandark is what amounts to a sentient demon sword with an extreme magical presence. there is no reason why he cant change himself to fit a situation, indeed that sounds like a good idea.

Except for being a sword and not a Soluna.

GEIERE:

Except for being a sword and not a Soluna.

....grandark is a living, thinking sword?
a DEMON sword? who can freely manipulate himself and the area around him through forces? and even dampen all incoming damage?

soluna IS a sword. not a magic sword, a soluna is just a big sword with a littler sword tucked into it.